00;00;14;09 - 00;00;42;29
Do application programming interfaces represent the most important technology in business? Welcome to CurrencyCast! My name is Agustin Mackinlay, I'm the Senior Financial Writer at Kantox and your host. In this episode, we have the pleasure to welcome Sean O'Connor, Director of Treasury at MongoDB, a US-based software developer. So Sean, a very warm welcome to you and thank you for joining us in this episode of CurrencyCast.
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Thank you Agustin, it's a pleasure to be here and to talk with you. Now could you start by introducing yourself? Yeah, thanks. I'm a Treasury professional with over 15 years of experience within both the corporate treasury and banking world. I've always been based here in Dublin and I've most recently started a new role, as you mentioned, as director of Treasury at MongoDB.
00;01;08;11 - 00;01;39;16
And I will be based here in Dublin. All right, and what is the typical day of the director of Treasury operations at MongoDB? Oh, that's right. That's a good question because I suppose given I'm just six weeks into the job, I haven't had a typical day just yet, as I spend most of my time meeting with individuals and stakeholders throughout the business to look at finding out what the Treasury operations look like now.
00;01;39;18 - 00;01;59;26
So I can look to consolidate and start building out a plan, I suppose, for how we take them on to the next level. So it's been quite varied. I've met with a lot of really good stakeholders across the business and colleagues that I'm sure I'll get to know a lot more over the coming weeks, months and years. All right,
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so, pretty new to the job sale, but I guess it's fair to say that most of MongoDB's products and services are priced in U.S. dollars, is that correct? Yes. Yes. US dollars would be our prevailing currency. So much so that our Irish entity is a US-dollar functionality as well as our US parent. Right. Well, at Kantox we’ve developed a notion that we call FX sensitivity.
00;02;27;01 - 00;02;57;13
So for example, a business that has low-profit margins and a lot of weight of foreign exchange in terms of its business transactions, has almost by definition a high sensitivity to currency markets or currency market fluctuations. Well, I guess this is not really the case at MongoDB, is that correct? I’ve read that you have some exposure on the contracting side, in terms of the euro and the pound.
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But I also read that your gross margins are north of 70%. So congratulations on that, by the way. But that makes it relatively less sensitive to currency fluctuations. Is that a fair assessment? I think that is a fair assessment from what I've seen so far Agustin. Yeah, we only offer, I suppose, billng in foreign currencies and you touch on trade on Swiss franc is the other, and so at this moment I suppose our exposure is quite light.
00;03;30;23 - 00;03;53;01
It doesn't mean that it should be ignored as all good treasurers would probably agree. And just because something isn't a major issue right now, it doesn't mean that may not change as the business develops and continues on its own life cycle. And as new markets are exposed that we shouldn’t look to put controls and measures in place to be proactive, as opposed to being reactive.
00;03;53;01 - 00;04;22;04
And so, yeah, I think your assessment is fair at this stage. And look, we have healthy profit margins at the moment, but we're still very much in growth mode, so those margins are available for investment essentially. So we want to maintain that, but also want to mitigate any upcoming or future FX risk. So it's an area where I have been looking at and I’ll continue to develop a plan of attack as we move forward.
00;04;22;07 - 00;04;48;19
That's right. I think you make a very good point there. Is not because maybe a company has a relatively low exposure in terms of size, but it could be in a pretty risky currency and create a lot of damage. All right. So let's move a little bit to the technology side there of business operations will come back, of course, to foreign exchange risk management.
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But I know you've been involved in the implementation of treasury management systems, know you're very knowledgeable about technology in Treasury operations. And I've read a little bit about MongoDB and their API-driven approach to business applications. Now, in some of the other cases that we see on the website of your company, it says that APIs follow the software-to-software interfaces that allow two or more computers to communicate with each other.
00;05;25;29 - 00;06;07;26
They play a pretty important role in terms of removing some of the most manual and resource-intensive tasks in providing real-time data analytics and allowing businesses to scale their operations. Tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, well, look, I think within the business itself, APIs are very important to our core products, you know. And giving our customers and clients who are essentially developers, you know, giving them access to real-time data to the MongoDB platform, such as Atlas, it's our fastest growing product for a reason,
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Atlas, and will continue to be. So I think when we broaden it and look into the operations of the business and how APIs and auto switch technologies are being leveraged in today's world, I think that's where the conversation gets really interesting. I think there's maybe a misconception at times around tech company companies and their operations. We obviously have access to amazing software developers, and engineers, and product managers who are really focused on our own internal products and on what we're pushing out to the market.
00;06;41;06 - 00;07;01;19
But when it comes to the operational side of the business, such as Treasury, and Finance, and Marketing, Legal, we can get into this what I like to call the tech companies, the support functions. And I would probably describe more like a sprinter whose body and legs are maybe not connected, you know. And its legs are its products,
00;07;01;19 - 00;07;25;19
and he's like Usain Bolt. Well, the body’s the operations and support, and maybe that's more like Mo Farah running a marathon, you know. So the body's always trying to, lagging behind the legs. And it takes big leaps like technology transformations to actually catch up, but the legs don't stop, so you got to keep going. And I think how businesses decide to invest in technology, I think is very important.
00;07;25;21 - 00;07;52;13
And we saw this and think about it within Treasury, maybe the fundamentals of your bank account structures when you look at your geographies and your individual operations and how you manage that side of the business. I think getting that foundation moving places is a core move that may set you up for success, when you look at a Treasury management system or any of the bulking products that we see, from cash forecasting tools to other analytics.
00;07;52;13 - 00;08;24;29
So I think really getting your foundations right and set and being able to scale from those, I think is still for me, the fundamental right route. And I was about to ask you about that. So I guess this has been hard but to us, at least in currency management automation, APIs play such an important role in exposure collection even before that in pricing with an FX right and in providing traceability,
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for example, for automating swap execution. One last question before we move to the more, perhaps, more FX-related topics of this conversation. I know, and in a way, you've already touched upon this, but maybe we can expand a little bit the conversation there. You mentioned that given all that's happening nowadays in terms of automation, that the role of the Treasurer is evolving towards a little bit more like I'm like a relationships manager, right?
00;09;03;28 - 00;09;35;00
Well you have so much to deal with, so many different stakeholders, the banking partners, the C-suite, the I don't know, the commercial teams. Tell us a little bit more about that. How do you avoid siloed-based approaches and acting as a relationship manager in a way? Yeah. I think the expression “great minds think alike and fools seldom differ” comes to mind
00;09;35;00 - 00;09;57;25
there Agustin. I look at it very similarly that Treasury right now, like most things and people when they move into their professional careers, is all about relationship management and sales. You know, we're all selling something. If we're selling our ideas, or for selling products and services to external customers or ultimately have to be good relationship managers and we have to be good salespeople.
00;09;57;27 - 00;10;28;07
I think Treasury has really evolved due to being able to leverage off technology from a very ops-driven department, to now where treasurers see themselves probably more as strategic business advisors, that ultimately liaise with other senior stakeholders throughout the business. Be it commercial, be it legal or finance leaders, be it the product team. When products are now being monetised, they're asking Treasury, you know, can we partner up on this?
00;10;28;07 - 00;11;03;20
So I think having that more holistic approach is really important. I think building rapport and ultimately strong relationships with your colleagues and peers, is the fundamental thing. And that's like for me being fresh into a role and trying to make those connects as early as possible. I spent the week before last out in New York meeting with a number of colleagues, and it's great to have those face-to-face connects as early in your careers and new businesses. Because I think Zoom and teams and video conferencing look it's great,
00;11;03;20 - 00;11;26;02
it's great, but like it doesn't feel, still it's not the same as shaking somebody's hand. And sharing a coffee hour, if you want to share a beer or glass of wine in the evening, even better. But you know, having establishing those core relationships, early doors, I think, is fundamental to setting yourself up for success. Absolutely, I think we would agree on that.
00;11;26;02 - 00;11;56;06
So we can say also that the role is evolving from being less of a transactional role to more of a well, as you said, an advisory, the strategic player within the company. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. And so partnerships, you know, I think we can call ourselves strategic business advisors, or strategic business partners. I think ultimately, it's very hard to get anything done on your own.
00;11;56;06 - 00;12;15;20
So if you stay in a silo and you don't have the buy-in from other teams and other colleagues getting your ideas across the line, you're going to at times be in a cul de sac. You know, you're going to hit a brick wall and you're going to rely on someone from the left or the right of your team to help you out.
00;12;15;20 - 00;12;37;19
You know, and ultimately implementing a project management system. Let's use, for example, you know, Treasury can't just go and implement it on their own because then it's a standalone system. So where then how does it fit into your ecosystem? You need to buy in from your account and your GL teams. If you want to look at ERP integration, if you're looking at your payment platforms and order switch systems, you know, you've got to work with those teams to.
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So looking at it as a, as an ecosystem with that Treasury is one segment of, I think is really important. And I think it works both ways as well. I think you've got to ensure that you're there to be able to, you know, support and advise your colleagues from other areas too. Right. That's really interesting. Now, let's move a little bit towards slightly more technical questions, especially related to currency management, foreign exchange risk management and your past experience at both Aer Lingus and Xerox.
00;13;14;12 - 00;13;42;04
Let’s start by saying just that at Kantox, for example, we think that currency management is more than currency risk management, and in turn currency risk management is more than the execution of FX derivative transactions. Think we give a lot of importance for example, to pricing in foreign currencies, what we call multicurrency pricing.
00;13;42;04 - 00;14;20;00
Do you think airlines can or should boost their multi-currency pricing? That is take advantage of the benefits of selling in more currencies with FX risk under control. And would that not be again a case of using application programming interfaces so that the finance team feeds in a way or so to speak, all those commercial teams with the FX rate they need in real-time?
00;14;20;00 - 00;15;00;14
Be it spot rate, forward rate, with a markup per client segment, per currency pair. In other words, discuss a little bit more multi-currency pricing, maybe especially in the context of travel and airlines. Yeah, that's a good question. And I suppose there's probably a lot of people on the commercial teams in airlines probably think about this a lot. I think multi-currency in airlines and aviation is probably a trick being missed, you know, from even from a revenue growth perspective, you know, and bringing customers on board.
00;15;00;16 - 00;15;21;28
You know, what we tend to see is customers are being displayed currencies from destination, or sorry from departing airports, you know. So you could be someone in the Middle East booking a flight from Dublin to London, and they're going to be shown in euros, but they may be using their local card to pay.
00;15;21;28 - 00;15;53;27
And, you know, there's ultimately going to be conversion there on one side, you know, if the customer is eating it or if it's the business itself. I think like, from having spent some time working in a lot of e-comm in my previous role and managing the relationships, the partnerships with our PSPs, you know. I think it's probably an area that's probably overlooked by airlines in how they manage their front end when it comes to pricing. Especially, ultimately airlines are e-comm businesses
00;15;53;27 - 00;16;17;18
now, the vast majority of revenue is collected online. You know, not many people go into their travel agents anymore and pay for their flights in cash or by card, even if they are paying they are paying by card, that's where the world is now. Everything I think COVID kind of probably, was one of the final nails in cash is coffin. Like, you know, and we're all using cards or alternative payment methods.
00;16;17;20 - 00;16;36;06
So I think airlines offering a variety there, you know, just the two ways about it. You mentioned using APIs. So, you know, you can manage the FX of the front-end trips. These are all kinds of you can take down if you've got the volume on scale and the economies of scale, you can take that in-house and use partners like Kantox.
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Or if you have the in-house, you have a large enough team of specialists, you know, to look at rationalising that risk. Because I think it's all about concentration, you know, and seeing where potential offsets lay within the business, and then seeing what's left over. So to me, I think there's opportunities on both sides of the transaction being right at the front end to mitigate some of the FX.
00;16;58;09 - 00;17;18;02
Don't get me wrong, you're not going to get the best exchange rates and all of the schemes like Visa and MasterCard, but depending on your volumes, it may justify taking it in-house. So I think airlines probably need to think a bit more like e-com businesses, because that's what they are, and how they structure their payments seems. And I'm sure some of them have,
00;17;18;04 - 00;17;45;04
but I think that's probably not as prevalent in aviation as it is in other industries. That's just a fascinating point. It's about exactly, as you said, about aggregating small pieces of exposure into larger positions and perhaps there, to set conditional FX orders to set the pricing white and to manage the corresponding risk.
00;17;45;07 - 00;18;13;14
So really, really very interesting point. Let’s go into another subject but still in the world of airlines and in particular, Europe-based airlines. I see, correct me if I'm wrong, but I see that sometimes the role of, or the sub-role of, say FX risk manager, goes hand-in-hand with a role of, say, commodity price managers in the fuel price risk.
00;18;13;14 - 00;18;47;05
Right. And I guess it's quite obviously because energy costs are priced in US dollars, is that right? Yeah, that's fully correct. And ultimately from a hedge accounting perspective, you need to do your hedge effectiveness testing and have your underlying exposures allocated against. And ultimately fuel being probably outside staff costs, the next largest cost within airlines, I suppose depends on what part of their price call for on other prices.
00;18;47;05 - 00;19;17;06
You know where it may go from the second largest expense up to, you know, the largest expense within aviation. And you know, so using your dollar, hedging is predominantly being allocated against your fuel exposure. So there is that correlation. In addition to that, I suppose when we look at other large costs within aviation, a lot of it is underpinned by the aviation financing and leasing side of the house, which again is a dollar business.
00;19;17;06 - 00;19;47;04
Even with the emergence of lessors in Asia regions and in the Middle East, we still see that dollar is the prevailing currency. So again, it's a large underlying cost. And unless you're on a transatlantic route, where you're maybe collecting a material amount of U.S. dollars, so you have something organic to offset. You're going to have to go to market, and use your functional currency flows to hedge these dollar exposures.
00;19;47;07 - 00;20;19;25
Right, right. Now, going back to the FX part in particular, would you favour, for example, in your hedging a layered hedge approach in a way that you could maybe smooth out the FX. where the hedge rate over time to avoid those bad surprises from a from the cliff. Right. That We're used to see in currency markets, not really now, but we still see some of those in commodity markets.
00;20;19;27 - 00;20;43;07
Yeah look 100%. I think layered hedging is by far the dominant strategy applied by airlines that do hedge. I think, you know, there’s two sides of it, look at. those. Ultimately when you are buying your fuel, you know, when you have your seasonality. But then the other side of it is you have this different kind of seasonality around how flights are booked.
00;20;43;07 - 00;20;58;22
You know, most people book in the first half of the year, you know, a lot of flights are booked with a lead time. So you're sitting on cash that's come in the door and the flight may not be till later in the year. For you to be able to put a price on that flight six months out, you know, you've got to have some risk protected on what you, what
00;20;58;22 - 00;21;26;02
the cost of selling that plane is going to be on that day. So yeah. So does that natural kind of, you know, ensure that you smooth out the curve. At the end of day, we're risk managers, we're not trying to beat the market. We're not speculating here. And, you know, it's about putting, removing volatility and increasing predictability to allow for prices to be put at competitive levels that allow a margin to be made by the business with then it's a super competitive area.
00;21;26;02 - 00;21;51;17
So you can't go price-gouging either. So we’re trying to try to balance out the two and then ultimately it is being underpinned by how much is it costing to get that airplane up in the air. Yes, absolutely. Okay, let's move a little bit to another FX-related management subsegment maybe. I think it has a little bit more to do with their best experience.
00;21;51;17 - 00;22;44;00
Also at Xerox, where if I remember well, in a previous conversation, you told us that you were involved in an in-house bank project. And one of your tasks was to remove as much exposure as possible. Well, that's particularly interesting to us. Would you favor here a perhaps a drastic and simple approach consisting in netting out just commercial exposures in the same currency pair, same value date and same amount? Or would you go for a more complex portfolio type of approach with correlations, calculations and all of that?
00;22;44;03 - 00;23;09;18
Yeah. I suppose when you look at a business the size of Xerox and the vast volume of entities that they have within their group structure, you know, you're talking about a business that literally has thousands of subsidiaries, well, at least wasn't far off. And, you know, there's a lot of intercompany going on. So a lot of FX risk can actually be, you know, can impact the financial statements.
00;23;09;18 - 00;23;34;29
And it's all being driven by intercompany. So running that netting program, running a global netting program was the choice at Xerox because it made sense, you know, given the volume. If we went to manage entities on an individual level and manage their FX risk, it’d be a true complex kind of hedging program, we probably would have needed another team of people just to run those programs.
00;23;35;01 - 00;24;04;10
And so ultimately running a netting cycle for intercompany, and then allowing the in-house bank then to manage the net risk, you know, in a back-to-back world with the kind of material, with the entities that had materiality in their exposure, was the decision there. And I think again, I think when you look at companies at the size of Xerox, I suspect that those types of programs are quite relevant because they can be managed in-house.
00;24;04;13 - 00;24;23;20
It could be managed through automation because ultimately you're pushing intercompany invoices into a netting system, allowing the cycle to roll in. And then it basically gives you gives you here exposures at the end and then you can go in action. And I suppose over time and how your data analytics works, this isn't what happened at Xerox, but this is I suppose I'm just elaborating.
00;24;23;20 - 00;24;57;19
I don't know what happened. It's been so long. I'm sure it's been evolved, but ultimately trends may emerge. And I think when you're looking at trends on a net basis, on a net exposure basis, then opportunities for running maybe some hedging opens up. But until you, I suppose, have some degree of comfort and certainty around those exposures, you probably don't want to go off putting in large positions, you know, at risk of increasing the risk as opposed to mitigating it, which is our aim as treasurers.
00;24;57;21 - 00;25;31;25
Right. Okay. Now continuing with the topic of broadly speaking, when you discuss when one discusses netting at the group level, it's almost unavoidable and in fact it goes hand in hand with the issue of centralisation, right, of foreign exchange risk management centralisation, and centralisation of maybe other functions. And I guess so on that I almost so think that I know your response.
00;25;31;25 - 00;26;25;21
But let's let me phrase it this way. We could think of a set-up where the subsidiaries have full control over their FX policy, and they would also be able to execute derivative transactions with their own liquidity providers. That there would be complete decentralisation. And on the other part of the spectrum would have headquarters setting up, or setting the FX policy for all subsidiaries and being the only entity authorised to execute external FX transactions in derivative markets. That would be full centralisation, where you wouldn't have subsidiaries executing mostly what we call internal trades.
00;26;25;23 - 00;27;01;22
My question is, is there life in between? Are there other setups that we could imagine? So, for example, letting subsidiaries set their own policy and in a way giving them incentives to improve their forecasts, but perhaps letting them only execute internal trades, and leaving that execution to headquarters. I mean, there could be more than one of those setups.
00;27;01;22 - 00;27;25;24
Right. And I guess is going to depend on many factors. What would you think? Yeah, look, I think it's a good point. And we've probably seen both extremes that you mentioned there and probably even many other examples, depending on how businesses have grown. If businesses have grown organically, or they've grown through M&A and have absorbed other businesses that have had different ways of doing things.
00;27;25;24 - 00;28;02;23
We all know when it comes to, say, post-merger integration, you know, there's always time. It always takes time to get everybody on board. Personally, myself, look I think the most important thing is consistency, so that everyone is kind of on the same line. And my concern with one of those methods, as in allowing local subs to be transacting, they've got to stick to a policy. Is that they have the people boots on the ground that are treasury professionals.
00;28;02;26 - 00;28;25;24
You can't be guaranteed depending on the size of your business, the number of subsidiaries you have. And you know, you're not always going to be guaranteed that you've got those resources locally. You may have a local business partner or finance business partner who's wearing many hats from all areas of finance, but won't necessarily be a specialist in Treasury. So knowing when to transact, and when to trade would be my concern there.
00;28;25;26 - 00;28;49;15
Also, I suppose my other concern there would be that dependent on each subsidiary isn’t created equal, if you get me. As in some will be more established than others, so when is critical mass? When do you determine that they can they can drive by themselves essentially? And would be the same, so again, having consistency I think is most important.
00;28;49;17 - 00;29;17;26
So I think having a more centralised function probably gives you more chance of getting that consistency. But I suppose the downside of that is the local staff tend to have more insight on the flows. So when it comes to like forecasting, like you mentioned openly, you know, the centralised function is relying on those hopes to be pushing up their local forecasts.
00;29;17;28 - 00;29;42;14
So I think yeah, I think look, ultimately we have to end up in a world of balance, and where we partner and maybe those cases that local staff can be empowered to transact. But I ultimately think policy should be driven from the top, because then that's the only way you can ensure consistency across the organisation. And look, I know that doesn't always work.
00;29;42;14 - 00;30;12;00
We've all been on both sides of the fence where we're the ones maybe dictating to the subs or we're the subs being dictated to. And just it's a push-pull kind of relationship, you know. But I think it's as close as you can get to consistency. And I think that's the most important thing, I think, is that policy is adopted on a global basis. Unless for some strange reason, be it because of it being an exotic currency pairing, you know, you've got to come up with alternative solutions.
00;30;12;03 - 00;30;46;29
You know, I think you should look to be consistent. All right. Well, I like that idea of consistency and an Irish sense of balance. So let's move maybe to our final point in this discussion. At Kantox, we're generally reluctant to discuss currency markets. We think ultimately foreign exchange or exchange rates are unpredictable. Right. But let’s discuss a little bit the situation in the UK and the British pound.
00;30;47;01 - 00;31;19;06
I know that MongoDB has some exposure. I've read that in the financial statements on the contracting side to the pound. And I guess that your experience in Dublin has converted you into an expert in the GBP-Euro exchange rate, right. Now the pound has been, it's no secret, very volatile, it had a crash last year.
00;31;19;09 - 00;31;53;00
Then it went on to be one of the best-performing currencies, it's a little bit weaker again. And also the pound is somewhat a particular currency, trades at a forward discount to the euro, and a slide forward premium to the dollar. In that context, there is evidence that UK-based treasurers are really concerned about foreign exchange risk.
00;31;53;02 - 00;32;34;21
But there's also a sense that, particularly among the small and medium-sized enterprises in the UK, there is a tendency to go for ad hoc hedging, which is another word for trying to forecast currency moves and try to take a position. Would you not agree that this is a particularly dangerous scenario to go about unsystematic hedging?
00;32;34;23 - 00;33;08;10
Yeah look, this is, you've made some really interesting points there, Agustin. I think, look, I think GBP-cable and GBP-Euro look, we could have a podcast about that and ultimately what's caused this strange volatility, you know. And I think, most people know it's probably underpinned by geopolitical issues from Brexit to changing of the guards in the US over recent years.
00;33;08;12 - 00;33;41;09
And a lot of I suppose, systematic issues on both sides and I think leaving that alone and looking at more UK corporate treasurers and, you know, this growing trend of, as you said, almost transactional-driven hedging, ad hoc hedging, if you want to call it. And I think look transactional, if it is transactional driven and it's to do with capital expenditure of some sort, it makes sense for all, to me that should be governed by policy.
00;33;41;12 - 00;34;17;00
I think when you get into ad hoc hedging, you’re ultimately, you know, it comes back to that consistency point I made previously. I think you have a hedging policy or you don't have a hedging policy. And I think, if you're sitting on a board of directors and you're looking at hedging at one board meeting and no hedging at another board meeting. You'd be asking yourself questions around, well, look, where is the consistency or are we approving a policy that we're going to stick to? Or are we just going to kind of fly by the seat of our pants, kind of, you know, and
00;34;17;00 - 00;34;44;21
be reactive to what's happening? So I think it's probably a risk. I think it also has a lot of upside if you're doing it ad hoc. But again, it goes back to points we touched on earlier. You know, it's about removing volatility and increasing predictability. So I think unless you've got credit issues, where you can't get access to facilities, that you can't have an ongoing hedging program, you've got to do it more ad-hoc.
00;34;44;24 - 00;35;18;08
Unless that's the case, I think you should be more systematic in your approach to hedging. Because it's something that you're not going to see the main impacts from on the short run. You've got to see a couple of years of financial statements to actually determine, has this been successful or not? Because we all know we have and incidents happen in the markets and cause we have crazy years, we have COVID, we have pandemics, we have these things that happen and we have years where the markets and interest rate markets can be can be so volatile.
00;35;18;11 - 00;35;42;27
And then we have other years where things are very quiet and the curve is quite flat. And you know, you've got to judge it on across all of those periods, as opposed to looking at it in isolation of let's look at what's happening to to 2022. We did some hedging that look, it was great or it was terrible because of what happened in the market and it was out of our control.
00;35;43;00 - 00;36;14;04
I think systematic hedging, if you're adopting hedge be systematic or transactional, but don't try to be somewhere that's not sitting there. Because you're ultimately probably creating as much risk as you're mitigating. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that completely. Now, look, Sean O’Connor, Director of Treasury at MongoDB, we've been through a lot of topics we’ve discussed application programming interfaces,
00;36;14;06 - 00;36;47;11
the role of treasurers as relationship managers of sorts. We then discuss a little bit pricing with an FX rate for airlines and hedging at non-U.S.-based airlines. We moved on to netting and FX centralisation. So lots of topics. And I want to really thank you for that, Sean, and I hope we’ll see you another time.
00;36;47;11 - 00;36;53;27
in CurrencyCast. Thank you Agustin, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.
