00:00:00:16 - 00:00:28:05
Agustin
Managing currencies in the age of uncertainty. Welcome to CurrencyCast. My name is Agustin Mackinlay, I’m the Senior Financial writer at Kantox. In this episode we have the pleasure of welcoming François Masquelier, CEO of Simply Treasury. Mr. Masquelier is also the chair of the Luxembourg Corporate Treasury Association and of the European Association of Corporate Treasurers. François Masquelier, thank you very much for joining us.
00:00:28:05 - 00:00:30:43
Agustin
It's a pleasure to have you here on CurrencyCast as a guest.
00:00:31:14 - 00:00:48:07
François
Agustin, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be on CurrencyCast today. I will try to share with you my views in order to optimize FX management, as well as the peer view across Europe and across the treasuries of multinational companies.
00:00:53:47 - 00:01:38:18
Agustin
Today's episode is sponsored by TreasuryXL.
00:01:38:20 - 00:02:07:31
Agustin
So here is my first question to you. What are your views on the both challenges and opportunities that 2023 might bring in terms of currency management?
00:02:11:31 - 00:02:54:04
François
First, if we look at the recent European Treasury surveys, we can clearly confirm that the market risk, what I call market risk, it's interest rates, FX, commodities, etc. So within TI, it was ranking in the last the OECD survey or surveys, I would say, in the 3rd position behind cash flow forecasting and digital transformation. So and if you look at the global PwC global annual survey, it also comes from this position of the you FX risk or you FX risk management as a top priority for corporate travel.
00:02:54:04 - 00:03:29:48
François
So it means that FX risk remain highly ranking by treasurers for 2023 onwards. It's a top priority and we will certainly have an opportunity to discuss that. The several reasons that I would say behind, to rank it. Number three, it's because first is the FX rate, as you say rightly, are highly volatile. And so we saw this volatility was different, let's see, the last couple of months or years with COVID war in Ukraine, etc..
00:03:30:12 - 00:03:58:08
François
And so I do not foresee, although as you don't like to make some some forecast, I do not foresee a decrease in the market volatility for FX currencies. Interest rate is quite important because of the swap points and differential interest and also for the commodities. And we know the way that commodities and the FX management. So I think that that's going to be a point we need to mention.
00:03:58:32 - 00:04:35:24
François
Therefore, it's essential for CFOs to protect operating margins because it's highly volatile. And so your operating margin could be easily eaten or swallowed by the movement in currency. So we remain under pressure. And it's why justifies having solid, efficient hedging strategies, an appropriate hedging accounting strategies and tools. So then it really is highly manual, as is the management as well as others, by the way, and is maybe why it's remained high focus for the corporate treasurers.
00:04:35:24 - 00:05:05:44
François
They somehow understand the problem because of volatility the fact that they are not sufficiently automated could be a problem. So the digital transformation is number two in terms of ranking is quite interesting because automation and digitization could be a way to solve all that risk or to improve the management of FX risk. And cashflow forecasting, it's a top priority for a couple of years now. And I guess that for 2023, we are
00:05:06:10 - 00:05:27:37
François
just launching the survey at the moment as we speak, should be and remains a top priority. And again, for the same reason, because we live in the world of uncertainty. So it's important to make sure that you have also accurate data, accurate forecasts. If not it's difficult to manage properly your FX risk. So I believe that the interest rate should remain bullish.
00:05:27:37 - 00:05:36:07
François
And potentially largely differential interest rates to retain support. So that's the difficulties for corporate treasurers these days.
00:05:36:39 - 00:06:07:11
Agustin
at Kantox, we see that sometimes CFOs do not always understand all the possibilities in terms of what we call optimizing forward points, that is to say, interest rate differentials.
00:06:07:11 - 00:06:36:45
Agustin
Now to illustrate that point only, now you've written that, and here I'm quoting you that: “often a CFO is a car driver who does not see his or her dashboard immediately, but with delay.” Now, what technology, and especially the availability of dashboards fed with real time data, make it easier or facilitate the communication between Treasury and the C-suite?
00:06:38:09 - 00:07:04:44
François
Yep. It's interesting and as I mentioned the forward points maybe a concern because some time we have a large differential of interest, especially with exotic currencies and there is speaking about interest rates in some currencies. So it may sometimes be expensive to hedge certain currency pairs, depending on which side you are in. Sometimes it could be in your favor, sometimes could be not in your favor.
00:07:05:08 - 00:07:36:09
François
If it's in favor some time, you can raise a question like shall I hedge because it's so expensive? or, what can I do to to improve my position? So, in such a situation, some CFOs decided not to hedge at all adjust and to monitor the exposure. What is feasible but as it's highly manual, the monitoring manually of the open exposure could be quite difficult, quite inefficient, and not really say a recommendation or best practice.
00:07:36:36 - 00:08:09:18
François
However, it is good news that there are solutions as currency management automation to more dynamically manage your FX exposure. The forward contract could be also monitored automatically with these machine to control stop losses. Because if you are afraid of being, let's say, impacted by these forward points, the way will be to keep the position open with stop loss order and to make sure that it's automatically monitored, in case of big markets fluctuation, within some boundaries.
00:08:09:18 - 00:08:43:20
François
So I think that's a it's a way to have a more dynamic approach and to reduce or to mitigate the impact of the swap points. So the time will pass and of course it will reduce the impact on your costs. And for the second part of your question, it's also interesting because this conditional order automated can help finance inefficiency because, you know, the machine will work 24 seven. It's quite important where you were over the weekend, at night, and sometime when you're some days off for banking or early days, you cannot.
00:08:43:41 - 00:09:22:19
François
So regarding also your point on the dashboard, it's quite important because the CFOs are always complaining they don't have access in real time to dashboards. So they would like to have a condensed summarize information to take the right decision. And for that you need some IT solution, because now we are in the time of the real time treasury. And very often as a tool we use the TMS and the add-ons to TMS are not properly fit to produce easily and immediately some reports for decision making at the C-level.
00:10:04:17 - 00:10:15:39
Agustin
Now, so you've written extensively about TMS and perhaps their shortcomings when it comes to currency management. Can you guide us a little bit on this topic?
00:10:16:46 - 00:10:48:31
François
I think that it's quite important to understand that there are some problems with the current TMS. I've underlined, the lack and gaps of current TMS. CFOs often think that if you have a TMS, a treasury management system, it can do everything around finance and Treasury. In reality, TMS are far from being able to do everything as we initially thought, so they are more and more SaaS version, very generically.
00:10:48:32 - 00:11:14:09
François
Meaning that the functionalities in the report are standard and not really customizable. So it's like pret-a-porter solution, it's not tailor made. And when we talk about the reporting and development a specific functionality, sometimes it's missing. So it means treasurers must find the way to fulfill these gaps and find the missing pieces.
00:11:14:29 - 00:11:43:28
François
And usually it's an Excel spreadsheet or by adding some add-ons to it to supply the FX management. But, the execution is usually efficient with platforms and interface with TMS for the post-trade management. Although, post-trade management is not perfect withTMS. Nevertheless, the pre trade part is never properly covered. There are two main treasury tasks where automation in my view is missing with TMS, it's cashflow forecasting, as
00:11:43:32 - 00:12:15:18
François
we mentioned, and the FX management. And by the way, I produced since the end of last year, Treasury technology mapping aiming at better defining existing solutions, the roads and limits, and to categorize the tools. Not all are TMS and TMS are not able to do everything, unfortunately. So it explains why add-ons are necessary, even if you have a TMS or a top class or leading hedge solution to optimize your treasury management as a whole.
00:12:16:16 - 00:12:42:42
Agustin
. And of course, pricing with a FX rate is part of that pre trade phase of the workflow right now. Let's go a little bit into the topic of cashflow forecasts. As we all know, right, ChatGPT is all the rage right now. Everybody is talking about it and suddenly AI or artificial intelligence is making a comeback.
00:12:42:42 - 00:13:13:32
Agustin
at Kantox we strongly believe that the importance overall of having accurate cashflow forecasts is somewhat overstated, at least when it comes to currency management. So I’d like to have your views on the importance of cash flow forecasting in general,
00:13:13:32 - 00:13:18:04
Agustin
and what about in the case of currency management in particular?
00:17:27:37 - 00:17:56:24
François
No, no, you're right. As a whole, it's a concern. But for FX management, especially if here the approach described is a one-to-one approach, where because of your business, you risk appearing here and there at any moment in time and potentially 24/7, especially when you have a B2C businesses with online business. So if you have such an approach, it's more systematic.
00:17:56:24 - 00:18:28:08
François
So what about the cashflow accuracy? You don't care because you are just hedging the coming exposure. So same if you have a layering approach or budget approach where you try to build according to a certain patter the hedging. So the beauty with the currency management automation solutions that exist on the market is that you can say automate that and still be efficient without necessarily having good cashflow accuracy.
00:18:28:22 - 00:18:56:24
François
And that's certainly a way to approach that. If you are not able to produce good data, try to have a strategy that makes sure that you are hedging all the exposure you can identify or you can estimate based on certain gradual approach. It's also a way to weight your hedging strategies and to make sure that at the end of the day you’ll have a weighted average price, especially
00:18:56:24 - 00:19:24:30
François
in some industries where you have a price fixed for a season or for the year. So again the tools some time are not adapted for different strategies. If you automate currency management systems, the FX management, you can certainly have different strategies according to your different businesses, because each business could have with different pattern, different constraints and risk. And there you can refine
00:19:24:33 - 00:19:32:29
François
your approach and be, at the end of the day, much more efficient and mitigate you risk and you can handle volatility.
00:19:33:25 - 00:20:06:03
Agustin
at Kantox we're fond of saying that currency management is more than just currency risk management and that currency risk management in turn is more than just the execution of a hedge right now. But that that requires what sometimes is called a holistic approach to currency management, namely one that takes the entire FX workflow, all the way from the pre-trade phase to the trade phase, and the central tasks of the post-trade phase.
00:20:06:34 - 00:20:38:29
Agustin
Now, consultants McKinsey has just published a book on the ecosystem of the future, and they argue that a multitrillion dollar economy is at hand, provided that we're able to at the company level to stare down those silos, to do away with a siloed approach. And at least when it comes, of course, to currency management, we're very much fans of this idea to tear down those silos.
00:20:38:29 - 00:20:40:35
Agustin
What's your view on this issue?
00:20:40:35 - 00:21:28:13
François
I totally agree. So I think that, and I do believe, that there are many silos in many areas of treasury and finance, the treasury's certainly not an exception, whereas a silo could impact the optimal management of the department. So sometimes every department requires support and data from other department. And you mentioned the pre-trade phase, I need to know the exposure of my operation and to be informed in due course and as soon as possible to make sure that that can apply the different strategies for hedging and make sure that I can protect the margin. Because, at the end of the day the CFO, the C-suite would like to avoid any volatility and impact on the
00:21:28:26 - 00:22:04:29
François
very thin operating margins in the tough context we are facing. And actually the same for cashflow forecasting we mention, for working capital, and for commodities. It's sometimes siloed where the information and the flows should be more interconnected, interlinked with the other finance departments. So no reason to that approach but also vertical with the subsidiary. And then we can excel again by breaking the silos, by generating value.
00:22:04:29 - 00:22:52:49
François
And in many cases, management is siloed, and therefore potentially inefficient. So the communication between people and between IT tools is important to mitigate the risk of inefficiencies. And so Treasury must be the central place for managing financial risk, all the risk but specially the financial risk. But for doing it rightly, it needs to be fed by data from all the departments and affiliates. And that's quite important to make sure that you are feeding the Treasury tools, TMS and some others, as soon as possible. Efficiently and if possible not manually, to make sure that you identify the exposure and can apply the ad-hoc and predefined strategy. That's really important to do
00:22:52:49 - 00:23:25:20
François
that. So to come back on your point on the Mckinsey study, I can tell you how much we can leverage from further automating FX management, but I guess it's a lot. And you have certainly opportunities to do better. You mentioned at inception opportunities, I think that we have good opportunities to see and to revamp the organization, the processes to generate more value for affiliates. And if you want, I can give you some of some examples, but I'm sure that you can certainly create value.
00:23:25:20 - 00:23:50:39
François
For example, let's take this example at least by offering to your affiliates, your subsidiaries to be able to invoice or be invoiced in the local currencies of your counterparty. By centralizing all the risk with automation is possible so you have a clear view and you give an advantage because it's easier to sell or to buy in the local currency of your counterparties.
00:23:50:48 - 00:24:07:19
François
That's a way where we corporates, if we break the silos, we can certainly generate value for the affiliates. We should not be in our ivory tower, we should also talk to the affiliate brands in order to improve and optimize the FX management risk.
00:24:08:09 - 00:24:40:08
Agustin
Yes, absolutely. Here at Kantox, we like to view automation as a tool for growth. And when we say tearing down those silos, we would make reference sometimes to the fact that the commercial teams on a finance team do not always see eye to eye. And once again, the idea of providing commercial teams with the FX rate they need in real time was is a good example of doing away with that silo mentality.
00:24:40:08 - 00:25:07:19
Agustin
And by the way, the same consultants at McKinsey said that the ones who are early adopters and drive cross-functional team work, are the ones that are going to reap the benefits and even side from it 10% increase in annual revenue growth. Right? the multi-currency world.
00:25:07:43 - 00:25:45:12
Agustin
There's some some reports here from the IMF and others arguing that, of course, the dollar and the euro remain important currencies, but that alongside the natural rise of CNY, of the Chinese currency, the currencies of a number of smaller but well managed economies are gaining ground, maybe to mention a few of them: the Canadian dollar, the Australian dollar, the Singapore Lawler, the of the Swedish crown, the Korean one and others.
00:25:45:40 - 00:26:20:39
Agustin
But what we find really interesting about about those stories and I think it turns it tends to confirm our views is that it is not only driven, or even not mainly driven, by top-down macroeconomic factors, but it's mostly corporate treasurers who are taking advantage of the benefits of buying and selling in more currencies. These are the ones that's a microeconomic and bottom-up phenomenon leading to that multi-currency world.
00:26:20:39 - 00:26:38:24
Agustin
Perhaps a surprising result, but nonetheless, I think it's a reality and we're seeing it on our day to day interactions with with customers and prospects. What’s your view François on that multi-currency world? Do you think it's a reality?
00:26:39:30 - 00:27:02:11
François
I don't think so because the case of the Euro becoming the common currency of a large number of countries is an exception, you know that this number is increasing recently with Croatia. So I keep saying it, we will continue facing a multi-currency world many less currencies, but still a multi-currency world leading by the hard currencies, and you mentioned some of them.
00:27:03:19 - 00:27:29:47
François
In this multi-currency world, some will remain or become predominant. And so you mentioned Renminbi, Renminbi we can anticipate the world, the Renminbi will increase, the euro-dollar rates it's quite stable, I would say. So it's difficult to see the more exotic or smaller currencies or what is not hard currencies would disappear.
00:27:30:27 - 00:27:54:25
François
I have some doubts. Of course, we will keep dealing more and more in the hard currencies. But still, at the end of the day, for a European company, and you talk to being based in Europe, we talk to a lot of companies where the euro is the functional currency. So I keep seeing you have to remain exposed because a commodity in this world are still dealt in dollars.
00:27:54:40 - 00:28:23:18
François
And I know that people predict every week, every year is the end of the U.S. dollar domination. But it still a fact. So even if after COVID we can see a rebalancing of the different leading currencies, maybe zero to good example, I keep thinking that it will be still domination of dollar and for some sales, the currencies they will still be there in the future.
00:28:23:41 - 00:28:46:22
François
So we will certainly face a gain some currency also for sure, but as to each country will try to to play on that, to be to become more competitive, having a lower currency. These are these hard ones. But I do not see that it will disappear. Maybe it will be simplified, but still we'll have a lot of currencies to manage.
00:28:46:37 - 00:29:12:30
François
And therefore it's why, please, in my view, for well-organized, automated fixed management to remove this risk of impacting operating margin and whatever the future evolution we could use digital currencies. By the way, we need to to make sure that we can, let's say minimized as much as possible the P&L volatility. What sequence you would like to to completely remove.
00:29:12:30 - 00:29:39:10
François
So difficult to answer you a macro question. At least the euro was a success despite a lot of detractors claiming every year that it's an unviable currency. I'm not convinced that it would change in the coming year because I do not see where we can find such a zone deciding to cover one common currency. So again, difficult to say.
00:29:39:10 - 00:29:57:00
François
We'll see. But I keep thinking that the world will be multi-currency with hard, more exotic or smaller currencies. And then it would be quite important to manage properly that to make sure that you extract the best and protect your company against risks.
00:29:57:45 - 00:30:25:14
Agustin
That's right! As we always say, use the most profitable currencies all the time.
00:30:25:29 - 00:30:51:10
Agustin
Thank you so much for joining us here at in CurrencyCast and well I hope you are to see you some next time.
00:30:51:24 - 00:30:56:21
François
Thank you for welcoming me and thanks for this invitation. Very interesting.
00:30:56:38 - 00:30:58:10
Agustin
All right. See you. Goodbye.